During the course of writing the Profiles one of the questions asked was—Do you have any tips for beginners / Novices of the Flying Breeds? - Below are all the answers received—Novices and beginners may find some of the answers useful but the obvious tips are repeated—Please sign the guestbook and let me know if this page was useful or not. Dave Walters

Do not keep to many birds and buy the best you can afford from a couple of the top fanciers. Visit them if you can as it is most important to see what you are buying. Visit as many shows as you can and ask the judge to tell you what he is looking for. Before buying see what type and colour you like. Remember there is no written standard for the West. Just a guideline for our beautiful flying breed. 'SO ITS UP TO YOU'. Have more empty perches in your loft than birds this will help you condition them better. Talk to as many fanciers as you can and 'learn.

When a newcomer has decided to go into the flying breeds I would always advise him or her to visit as many of the flying breed classic shows as possible. Take note of the type of show bird, which is winning the shows, also take particular notice of the show condition of the winning birds, which is so necessary to win at the flying breed shows. Find out the leading fanciers at the shows and introduce yourself to them and ask as many questions as you can on the hobby and their own methods of management. Any true fancier will be only to pleased to offer help to the beginner. I would also advise the beginner to pick just a couple of leading fanciers from which he would like to make a start and visit these fanciers with the aim to purchase as good a quality birds as possible from their studs. When it comes to your first breeding season pair up your birds best to best, breed for quality not colour to begin with and breed as many youngsters as you can from your top pairs and after the breeding season cut the numbers right down to just the very best to be retained for the show season. For show condition, never overcrowd your loft with pigeons and have as many spare perches as possible, an empty perch is often more valuable than the bird sitting on it. Keep your loft very clean, clean out every day if possible, bath the birds once a week at least and feed the best quality corn you can afford, with regular grit and minerals and once a week feed a small amount of show condition. If you follow the main common sense guidelines you will not go far wrong. Try and form your own family of birds, it will take at least five years to create the basis of a true family line but once a true family has been created it will be much easier to breed good quality show stock reminiscent of their parents and grandparents rather than a hit and miss affair of trying to breed the odd good one from pigeons which have been obtained from various different lofts and fanciers.

Go to the best fanciers for the best birds. Talk to them, go back and talk to them some more. The more you talk the more you learn. Go to the shows and talk to the judges. But most of all do not have too many birds.

Don’t be fooled by the fancier who talks a good pigeon, and listen to fanciers who are winning now, not twenty years ago. Also go to the open shows, as the club shows don’t have the competition or the strength in classes of different strains, although the Canterbury Club excels in top West Exhibitors. Go to the open shows and when you have decided on your strain ask the fancier to breed you half a dozen young birds with your rings on. This way you will have more chance of getting a couple of good ones or buy from a fancier who is calling it a day. We have joined The London and Essex Club who are very forward thinking. Having monthly meetings with table or slide shows, Summer BBQ. Club Dinner etc.

First and foremost is to gain knowledge and information on the breed you wish to keep from fanciers who have kept and shown those birds with success. One of the most important rules that we could pass on to beginners is cleanliness in the loft. This advice would save so much time and trouble in the future healthier birds.

Firstly to walk the Championship shows and identify the breed that most appeals to you. Every fancier favours one breed and colour - choose the one that you can remain dedicated to for many years. Secondly, discover who the successful breeders are and talk to them to discover some of their methods and ways of working with the breed. When setting up a loft, always build the biggest you can manage, as space is always critical. Buy two or three quality pairs from different fanciers, ensuring the key points are visible across the stock purchased. By line breeding for three to four years you can then develop your own family of birds.

Go for quality pigeons. not quantities of them. Two good pairs will always produce more good youngsters than five mediocre pairs and they won’t cost as much to feed either. Try and get your foundation stock from a proven breeder, ask for advice on breeding - he knows his bloodlines, and what you are likely to breed from any particular pair. Do not buy birds from every Tom, Dick or Harry (unless of course they are Dick Taylor (Scotland) or Harry Heal (Bristol)). Give your breeding pairs plenty of room, breed hard and select even harder. an average squeaker does not grow into a top class show bird - they come from top class squeakers, and a good fancier will spot them as they leave the nest. Good pigeons fed with quality feed and given plenty of fresh water and loads of space will condition themselves - you do not need all the medicines / probiotics / vitamins etc. etc. that are available. Dry loft conditions, lots of space and perches out numbering birds by 2 to 1 will condition show birds for you.

Build your loft so that it will always be dry, no leaks or condensation, make sure it is well ventilated but not draughty. If possible have a flight where birds can bathe and mate. Research what breed you wish to keep, then find out who are the consistent winners and with what colours. Be prepared to pay for quality. Better to buy one pair premium birds than a hundred also rans. Learn about the basic pigeon genetics, its not as difficult as you think. Only buy quality feed, do not be tempted by cheap mixes, always keep it dry and inaccessible to insects and rodents. Keep the feed and water containers clean, disinfect weekly, I soak mine in a bleach solution over night. Never feed wet grit it may contain bacteria, if necessary cook it in a microwave and don't forget to allow it to cool. Buy a few quality books on pigeons and study the diseases and their medications. Visit like-minded pigeon fanciers talk out problems and concerns, listen but don't be afraid to get a second opinion.

There are all the obvious things like buy the best you can afford. Have plenty of ventilation in your loft,. Never buy cheap food. Change the water daily and one thing that I do feel strongly about is, do not keep too many birds. The nest bowls that I use to make were made from vinegar barrels and my birds never had any red mite problems whatsoever. Another tip from years gone by is if a bird shows the obvious signs of canker around the mouth paint it with pen ink (Quick Ink) this quickly curses the problem. I can also remember that we made available to the birds coal slag, course sand, rock salt and used mortar, we also put cod liver oil over the corn but I suppose that the modern health grit we buy nowadays has replaced all these little quirks that we used to have.

Don’t be afraid to ask for advise. Most Fanciers are more than willing to talk about their breed. If you get a chance, steward for a judge, you will learn more that way, than from a book. Don’t keep too many pigeons, its quality that counts. Then try to build up your own family. Once you found corn, minerals and grit that suit your birds, ,stick to it, don’t mess about trying other types. I’m not a big believer in supplements but I do give my birds brewers yeast tablets every other day starting at three weeks old. Before pairing up I treat for worms, canker and coccyx. Prevention is better than cure.

This section of the Westerly Profile I find the most interesting to read and a lot of good tips have been given to the beginners by my fellow fanciers and once I have finished writing the Westerly Profiles I am going to list all the tips and publish them in the Feathered World. The obvious tips that I would give to any new comer to keeping pigeons is do not rush and buy if the birds you want are not available be willing to wait. Go to as many shows as you can and see the birds that are winning and if possible do what I did and video the birds on display and study them at your leisure. Ask as many questions as you can no matter how silly they may seem the true fancier will enjoy talking about the birds and helping where he or she can. Remember there is no short cut to winning with your birds ‘you only get out as much as you put in’. You may have the best birds in the country but unless you present them in the correct manner at the shows they will never win. I am often asked for the secrets of my success. There are none just a lot of work and dedication, the best corn you can afford, do not overcrowd your birds. I personally hopper feed my birds believing that the bird knows better that I what it wants and it seems to have worked for me. Finally cleanliness not only in your loft but in your presentation of the bird on show day.

Gary and I still class ourselves as beginners. Like many other fanciers who started we went to a few shows and talked to lots of helpful guys who gave us tips and advice on which birds we wanted to keep. We then purchased our birds from John Jones and Michael Horner. The prints came from John and the others from Michael. This has enabled us to breed and build up our own studs now, which we feel are of the right type as this is beginning to stand out at the shows i.e. we now get plenty of recognition for our efforts, in other words, winning the NPA and Federation certificates and our fair share of trophies. This brings great feeling of pride and satisfaction to both of us.

There are many tips for novices. My best tips are don’t rush in to keep pigeons. Do your homework first. Have a good look round the pigeon shows. Go to as many pigeon fanciers’ places as you can and ask what costs are involved in looking after pigeons. Ask yourself have you the time for pigeons. If the answer is YES, ask pigeon fanciers to help you pick your first pair of birds. There are many things to think about, but at the end of the day you must be able to enjoy your hobby.

Get the best birds that you can from a reputable breeder, the most expensive are not always the best, there are still some fanciers who will let you have decent birds at a reasonable price and may even donate a few free ones to get you started. Listen to advise from experienced breeders (it's free) and you can always forget it later if its of no use to you. Don't expect to win every card in sight straight away, accept the judges' decision, and be a good sport, your bird may lose today but it might win at the next show (remember another day another judge). lf you like the pigeons you have in your loft. keep theme because the judges only look at them for a few minutes at each show you enter them in. you look at them in your loft every day of the year.

I still only a novice myself , I have only been keeping the flying breeds for ten years but if you were to push me for an answer I would advise anyone just starting to buy wisely as I have mentioned before I was luckily enough to get Mel Brooker stud birds which obviously gave me a very good start. Speak to the genuine fancier which I know will pass on all the information you need.

There has been a lot of discussion recently on the pros and cons of a standard - more than I can remember in the 15 years I have exhibited West’s. One of the arguments for is “that it would assist the novice”. I am neither strongly for or against the idea. Digressing slightly, I think we should ask ourselves “why the need for a written standard?”. I believe that due to escalating fuel prices and other factors, fanciers are not travelling around the country as often as they were. Thus the comparisons and discussions that went on previously between the novice and the more experienced no longer take place.

I can remember as a novice, handling a ‘Brooker’ bird and realising this was the standard I needed to achieve. It would appear to me that different standards are now evolving in different areas. We need to develop qualified judges who are willing to travel and be prepared to pay them appropriate expenses. Consistency is the key!

Anyway, to get back to the question. Because all of this frustrates me as well as the novice I have developed, for my own use the following methods:

(1) One of the pens in my penning and preparation area has a background of one inch squared paper. This allows me to check the overall length and height, breadth and leg length, and can be used to gauge beak setting and head shape. (see photograph)

(2) I also have a set of scales on which I weigh my birds (see photograph). having first placed them in the cuff  part of a gauntlet. This is also useful when experimenting with different feeds.

(3) Close by I keep a Dulux colour chart for the comparison of eye colour to pearl.

Please note I have not offered any measurements on what I consider the ideal. The problem of course is “how can you measure, or even describe, handling and balance?”, which as I said earlier, are the most important to me. So far I have failed. Other than this keep the numbers under control - If you look critically at your stock how many birds are out of the top drawer? It is easier to keep the birds clean than to get them clean. After breeding right through the show season I hand bath each bird individually approximately every 10 days.

Well, what can you say, it’s all been said before. The only real advice I can give would be find yourself a fancier in your area and go and see him. They will soon establish whether you are interested or not and I am sure will give you every assistance if you are really keen. Make sure you go to the best and genuine fancier in your area that way you can be sure that you will not get ripped off. Before deciding which type of pigeon you are going to keep go to a show there are a lot of different types of fancy pigeons out there and it is important that you are sure that you have made the right choice.  The amount of fanciers that I know that have had, about a dozen breeds in the first 12 months. I have only ever had flying breeds so it would be unfair for me to comment about the fancy pigeons. I thrive on competition and it keeps me on edge making sure the birds are well feed and watered, cleaning them twice a day and keeping them in very dry conditions. I give the birds a bath once a week and they always get any minerals they want. The biggest no no is ‘do not overcrowd’. A lot of good fanciers overcrowd their lofts and this is the biggest way of getting diseases in the loft than anything. I also believe that you should pick one breed and stick with it.

Well I class myself as a novice still due to fact that I am still learning. My Father has helped me a lot over the years with his knowledge what to feed etc. but the showing is new. Find someone with experience and try to get information from them and handle the birds that are winning at the shows and you can feel and see the difference. Always give the birds clean water everyday and keep them as clean as possible. And also do not keep to many birds.

My advice to the new fanciers is go to the shows see you is doing the winning, get talking to them. Pigeon men and women are the friendliest people I know, they will always advice and birds to newcomers they think will take up the fancy. The trouble is newcomers expect to win shows after only one or two years, that just will not happen you must have patience if you are keen you will get there, if you keep on going to the shows and showing birds other fanciers will notice this and help you out. Some top fanciers go to shows and don’t win the main thing is the love of pigeons; winning shows are just a bonus.

Yes – Firstly only keep a few birds. The reason for this is if you overcrowd your loft the birds will get stressed. It’s possible they could go down with a disease due to overcrowding. Also it’s easier to keep them clean. To avoid quill lice I use Vapona’s, which is a moth repellent, don’t be fooled though they don’t last forever. I recommend that they be changed at least every two months. Go to as many shows as possible and ask to be a Steward. This way you can look, learn and listen. Don’t be shy in asking the judge’s questions about the birds remember it’s their hobby and they are always willing to talk about pigeons. Also don’t expect to buy winning birds, as people will not sell you their best stock. Why not try asking if you can send a couple of rings to one of the winning breeders and ask them if they could breed you a couple of pairs.

I consider myself a novice but I have already learnt a few important tips. Anyone starting up should go to the shows and study the birds that are winning. Also do not be afraid to ask the experienced fancier/breeder questions and let them explain what the judges are looking for in a bird. Why they have chosen the winner above the rest of the birds. Also try to buy stock of reputable breeders and always if you can go to his/her loft and see what you are buying and what they are breed from, after all you can’t expect to buy their best but if you can get offspring from their best then the a giant step forward. I have seen it too often when people have pigeons sent to them and are not happy with what they have got.

I feel very strong about novices being given second-rate pigeons. They are the future of the flying breeds and providing they are keen enough should be given the chance with some top quality pigeons not some of the rubbish that I see passed onto them today. If they have birds that produce odd eyed or coloured tail feathers they will soon get disheartened. They should always be prepared to listen and never be afraid to ask questions of the judges, but do remember that certain judges look for certain things in a bird so part of the showing game is to learn your judge and show the birds that you think he will like.

This has all been written before but it is still sound basis to any new fancier thinking of starting up with our fantastic hobby. Find an experienced fancier or a local club and get to meet people who can give you invaluable advice (often not found in books) and if possible visit the lofts of fellow fanciers. Learn the pitfalls and also persevere and don’t give up at the first hurdle as there always people ready to help at the end of a phone.

Look for who is doing the winning and talk to them. If it’s convenient ask if you can go and see there set up, not just the birds but also the way they look after them is also important. It certainly doesn’t cost any more to feed a good bird than an ordinary one. Get the best birds you can always remember no-one is going to sell you there best birds but if you can buy the best they have to go and from their established lines then you are going in the right direction. Always remember success doesn’t come over night and it will take a while to get the right birds together. Always be prepared to listen especially to those people that are winning, remember it cost nothing to listen and it’s up to you whether you do what is suggested or not, you will soon learn who is giving sound advice. No matter what livestock I have kept I have always listened to those that have been winning and it has done me no harm especially when I look back at the success I had with the Greyhounds.

I think the same as most fanciers, go to the shows and see what takes your fancy, then acquire as much stock as you can and try to develop your own type in building your own stud. The main thing is to be patient, do not expect immediate success Rome wasn’t built in a day.

My advice would be to keep quality not quantity and keep the loft clean at all times, also to fly them out and enjoy them every day of the year weather permitting. They will be healthier and happier due to this.

I think everything has been said in previous profiles but all I can say is if you keep flying breeds join the National Federation but take no notice of what Stuart Harford tells you!

My tips for the novice would be listen to as many of the top men you can and read the profiles in the Feathered World every month plenty of good tips are given here. Do not be feared of showing at the top shows most of the older fanciers will be more than willing to help you get started on the long road to success remember a 3^rd or 4^th at one of the main shows can be counted as a huge success especially with the quality of the birds on display at present, never give up Rome wasn’t built in a day.

If you intend to show your birds, join a club (SFBC), Federation or any other organization.  Choose the breed you fancy, don’t keep to many different breeds as it will only confuse you.  You have started in the right direction by buying the Feather World.  This is how I made contact with the Federation and also an excellent way to contact top breeders for birds and advice.  Learn about the birds you wish to keep. Ask if you could be a steward at your local pigeon show, there should be one near where you live.  Try to buy your birds from the show pen, a tip  I learned from John Thomson. Loft management:  It is important to have a settled loft, you don’t want to keep pigeons that you can’t handle.  Flighty pigeons unsettle the others.  Don’t overcrowd, always have plenty of perches.  Also you don’t want open planned lofts, have small compartments, it makes it easier to handle you birds.

Most important is to decide what breed, type and colour you want to keep and try and acquire the type of bird you want today everybody is looking for different points. There are some decent fanciers that will help you, but in my experience over the years be careful what you are offered once you got some reasonable stock it’s down to you don’t expect success immediately it takes time and quite a few disappointments. If you ever acquire the birds you are after just strive to breed the best bird you can but you will never breed the perfect bird all the fanciers are still trying to do this but then the what makes it all so interesting. I have read all the profiles before and a lot of it has all been said before some sound advice has been given and always be prepared to listen.

Yes – Go to some of the classics, meet the top fanciers of the day, study the winners and keep your eyes and ears wide open, watch and listen and of course one has to open ones mouth sometimes you can’t stand there like a complete lemon all the time. Seriously it pays to watch and listen you will learn a lot more that way. Go to one or two of the seasoned fanciers for your breed, take their advice and remember they know their family of birds best, don’t be in a hurry to keep lots and lots of birds, gain experience and work from there, but get yourself involved with your local club, you will have lots more fun, get to know the fanciers around you but remember the main thing is that you enjoy your pigeons whether it is for the show pen or just fluttering around the garden.

I class myself as a novice when it comes to the Tipplers but I would recommend that you attach yourself to an experienced fancier in the breed of your choice and be guided by them and attend as many shows as possible and most importantly – Enjoy.

I still consider myself a novice, but would suggest that a beginner should seek out a good local fancier who is winning now, and listen to his advice.  Read books, magazines, and ask to steward to judges at Shows.  That helps you to put what you have learned into practice, and enables you to compare good birds one to another, and to learn the slight differences between a good specimen and a winner, and then between a winner and the Best West of England Tumbler.

The most important thing I can say to any novice is take and your time and be sure which breed you want to keep and don’t rush to have a lot of birds, start off in a small way building up slowly that way you will enjoy your birds and they will not become a chore. The flying breeds give great pleasure but also bring troubles especially with hawks and other predators.

Stating the obvious the only way to learn initially is from established fanciers. Go to as many shows and club meetings as possible. I have joined the Federation, The Bristol TTSS and Bideford clubs. Don’t be afraid to ask for advice any good fancier will be only to happy to help where they can. If you can get an established fancier to come to your loft ask their opinion on your birds and ask them to be frank and honest, brutal in fact and note their remarks

The best advice I can give with my limited experience in showing is buy the best it will save you years of breeding. Make sure you have a dry clean loft and plenty of food the best you can afford, water, minerals and grit all year round. Last but not least take on as much advice as you can from experienced fanciers you will learn from their mistakes instead of making your own.

It would be silly of me to start offering advice to others when I am very much looking to others to help me on my way, but I must say I have found this section of the profiles very informative. The best advice I can offer is to join a good club and look to the fanciers that have been showing and winning for help. In my experience everyone is willing to part with his or her knowledge and have been very helpful. I have joined the following clubs. The Federation, Northern Counties T&T, NPA, British Brunner Club and of May this year the Bradford Fanciers to be held at Idle.

Get to know the fanciers in your area and ask them for as much advice as possible. Attend as many shows as possible and get to know the breeders, buy your stock birds from people who do well at the shows. Always keep a dry loft that is well ventilated with no drafts, this is key to preventing diseases. Get to know the right feed, the one that will help to build up your birds. Poor quality food means poor quality birds. Get to know your own ideal bird from the better breeders and never let your vision be lowered always try to improve on what you have.

When starting with West’s or Tipplers, watch to see who’s winning at the shows, Talk to them most fanciers will help and give advice, ask if they will breed you some young birds or sell stock birds. Between May and October is usually the best time to approach fanciers for birds, as this is when they sort the birds ready for the winter shows that start in October.

Keep your lofts clean and dry, 1 personally keep my birds on bare wooden floors, only using loft white in very damp spells, scraping them out every day. Feed the best corn you can afford. 1 personally hopper feed my birds and never leave food in over night, clean fresh water every day, you don't need all these additives for the drinker. Spend as much time as possible with them so that they become calmer and trust you Never over crowd your birds, make sure that there is more perches than birds. The loft should be well ventilated Study the birds that are constantly winning and handle as many of them as you can. Listen to as many winning fanciers as possible. Never make a snap decision following a show and trust your own judgment.

As a new comer to the breed I feel they are similar to race birds and I suppose to most type of pigeons keep them clean, fit and healthy, feed good clean corn and change their water daily and always buy the best stock you can afford the old saying ‘ It costs as much to keep a good one as it does a bad one’

Once again being new I can only pass on the tips given to me by Trevor, John and Dave and that is once you have established your food mix then stick with it. If you introduce new birds into the loft then make sure you quarantine it before letting it loose with your own birds and medicate once you suspect something is wrong with the bird and if it shows no sign of responding within 3-4 days then destroy. There are of course the obvious like clean food and water every day and purchase birds from a reputable breeder.